View topic - citizenship and wanting to get to Italy


All times are UTC + 1 hour




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:23 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:51 pm
Posts: 20
Hi all,

I'm new to this site as of yesterday and I guess I have to get up on my soapbox at least once to vent alittle to people I know will understand, so forgive me.
I have always loved Italy from the first day I landed at Fumincino. We decided we wanted to live there and my husband applied for citizenship since he has the relatives.
Anyway , we got the new papers and translations and of course all the apostilles. Now the wait. So many people have said it could take up to a year and a half.
It makes me so mad when I see all the illegal immigrants in Italy that come in and take and take and never become citizens the right way, and here we are doing everything by the book and getting turned back and made to wait , not to mention pay a fee for filing, even if we don't get it.
Well I'm sorry for getting up on my soapbox everyone, but I had to get it off my chest. We continue to wait...


Last edited by torcgirl on Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:41 pm 
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 506
Location: Bay Area, CA
torcgirl wrote:
It makes me so mad when I see all the illegal immigrants in Italy that come in and take and take and never become citizens the right way. And here we are doing everything by the book and getting turned back and made to wait , not to mention pay a fee for filing, even if we don't get it.(


Which immigrants are those?

Do you mean all the Americans and Canadians who overstay their visas and work in the black? Or do you mean the many hardworking Africans, who, despite trying to play by the rules, are not allowed citizenship for themselves or their children (often born and raised in Italy)?

BTW, I waited two years for mine, so three months is a breeze. Relax and drink a glass of wine.

_________________
Gioele

Veni, vidi, vesci... –Me


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:51 pm
Posts: 20
Gioele, I am speaking of those people who come to Italy illegally, stay and never leave. They don't want to do things by the book and take from the system and never pay into it, even commiting crimes. They don't want to learn the language and just refuse to pay their fair share. We want to come to Italy, to do things right. Is it right to just come into the country and never leave and not pay your fair share? By doing this , they are making it harder for the people who are trying to do it correctly. I understand for some people coming to another country is a new start for them one they could not get in their home country and a way to provide for their families and they are good hardworking people. I wholeheartly agree that they should get a new start, but do it legally. We have to.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:42 pm 
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 506
Location: Bay Area, CA
torcgirl wrote:
Gioele, I am speaking of those people who come to Italy illegally, stay and never leave. They don't want to do things by the book and take from the system and never pay into it, even commiting crimes. They don't want to learn the language and just refuse to pay their fair share. We want to come to Italy, to do things right. Is it right to just come into the country and never leave and not pay your fair share? By doing this , they are making it harder for the people who are trying to do it correctly. I understand for some people coming to another country is a new start for them one they could not get in their home country and a way to provide for their families and they are good hardworking people. I wholeheartly agree that they should get a new start, but do it legally. We have to.


Who are these people? Do you have personal knowledge of some, or are you just repeating invective you've heard in the US?

Most immigrants without the legal right to stay, in the US and Italy, actually put into the system and often don't receive the benefits of their contributions. When you look at someone, how do you judge whether they are legal or not? How do you identify them?

If you have personal knowledge of undocumented immigrants in Italy and their theft of benefits, then that's one thing, if, on the other hand, you are just repeating invective, please stop.

_________________
Gioele

Veni, vidi, vesci... –Me


Last edited by Gioele on Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:49 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:51 pm
Posts: 20
well I have seen it when I have been in Italy. The Guys that sell purses on sheets for one. When the cops show up they grab their stuff and run. Doesn't sound legal to me. I could give many other examples from what I have seen in Italy myself and not just what I have heard in the US, but I was just stating my opinion and not trying to offend you ,as you obviously seem to be . So I apologize if you were offended. I was just stating the fact that many people do not enter the country as legally as we are trying to do, that's all.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:50 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 2:33 pm
Posts: 678
Location: campi bisenzio italy
Maybe she has heard about certain immigrants in Prato(but I doubt it) if you are referring to Albanian's or Romanian's all of them speak better Italian than those snotty anglo's that live up in Fiesole and even though lots of Albanian's came here as clandestine years ago you will now find that most of them have permesso's and even cartasoggiorno and are working hard as tile layers or masons etc. if anything they came here looking for a job not because they were bored in their home country.
As for the guys selling the purses they are selling them for someone else who is 100% citizen and in regola at least as far as immigration is concerned, I seriously doubt the money the are making is for them most importantly did you ever notice who is buying from them :o

_________________
Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:07 pm 
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 506
Location: Bay Area, CA
I just don't understand how someone who is receiving the red carpet treatment (your husband is receiving his second citizenship from a developed nation through his ancestors), when compared to others, can get so angry about people you don't know anything about, who may have faced death (or may have seen his family suffer or die -- whether from war or famine) to get to somewhere where they can work to make a better life.

There, but for the grace of god (or chance), go I (or you)!

Have a little compassion, please?

_________________
Gioele

Veni, vidi, vesci... –Me


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:40 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:51 pm
Posts: 20
well its interesting how I come to the post with a heartfelt explanation of my situation to get some friendly ears from people who have been there and I get a lecture about one line of my post. I was obviously wrong. I even went so far as to apologize to you if I offended you and you still keep on me about how priviledged I am. First of all I said that no one should come into a country illegally and stay and not try to become a citizen, are you advocating illegal immigration?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:06 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:31 pm
Posts: 62
Location: NY, NY
These "illegals" you speak of are only trying to do exactly what our italian ancestors did when coming here, work toward a better life, legally or not. It's because of your husbands ancestors that you're entitled to an italian passport. We're incredibly fortunate, remember.

Waiting 3 months is nothing to cry over. It's taken some 4-5 years to complete the process. Be patient.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:35 am 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:39 pm
Posts: 409
Location: Lecce
All I can say is, try living in the third world before you get so angry at illegal immigrants. After some of the things I've seen, while I don't necessarily advocate breaking the law, I can also understand why people leave their countries for places like Italy, even as clandestines.

That said, I can understand the frustration you must feel when you are doing everything you can by the book. I'm not offended by anything you have said - but I should warn you that you (perhaps not knowing it) touched on a sensitive topic. But, hang in there and be grateful for all you have - it will work out how it's meant to work out.

_________________
http://tinatangos.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:42 am 

Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 11:30 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Santa Domenica Talao, (CS)
You don't have to become a citizen to be in a country legally. Anyone who is in a country illegally carries the burden of knowing that they can be deported any day someone takes an interest in their case. It is not a carefree life. Countries count on having illegals to do work that their citizens don't want to do. It's a much more complex subject than most people have the patience to find out about. I know one thing, I can't tell an illegal person by looking at them.

Oh, and it never occurred to me to get mad at other people trying to live in Italy, I'm too busy being mad at the rules and procedures that you can't even find out about when you try. Just have no imagination, I guess.

_________________
Santa Domenica Talao, Calabria
Il Terrazzo Italiano
http://12viacappella.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:48 am 

Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 12:49 am
Posts: 40
Location: USA
Torcgirl,

At least you have one person that agrees with you on this site....me! :D

Remember that people today think that the emperor is still wearing a long and elegant robe! :o

Ciao,

NR


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:14 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:51 pm
Posts: 20
I can understand why this is a sensitive topic, I have compassion and I feel for many people who feel the need to escape oppressive regimes. They escape to a country where they feel they can raise their families in safety and try to make a living. Anything is better than where they came from. So they hide and do whatever they need to to survive. At one time,I was at the bottom in my own life and I worked myself up to where I am. No one handed me anything, I work hard for everything I have. So I do understand.I believe that the immigrants need advocates in Italy and in any country that this happens in, that can work with and for them to help them achieve citizenship. I also understand that Italy probably doesn't have anything like that , and they desperately need it.
But something that is not being realized here is that in taking from the system and not becoming part of the community you are contributing to its downfall. If all the members of the community contribute something to its upkeep and you feel that you should'nt have to,how is that right? When my husbands ancestors came to the US and wanted to become citizens, they learned the language and did things the right way. They wanted to be part of the community. Am I having a lack of compassion if I'm an idealist who thinks that everyone should at least try to do the right thing and want to do things for the good of all? I'm sorry,when did doing the right thing become wrong? Gioele suggested that I needed to have some compassion and if I didn't ,I should just "stop it". I have alot of compassion for immigrants. Here in my state I work with many immigrants from Guatemala and Ecuador and they may be here illegally but they now want to do things correctly for the family that they have brought with them.They are hard working people and though they may not be here legally yet, they very much want to become a citizen. So I would think that at least if we open a discussion and not just hope that someone else will do something, maybe we can work on a solution that can help everyone achieve their goals and dreams. That is the idealist in me talking I guess. But if we look the other way and sweep people under the rug, the problem of a better life for the immigrants gets forgotten in the US and Italy. There needs to be a beginning. So is it so wrong to try and do things the right way? It has to start somewhere.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:10 am 
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 506
Location: Bay Area, CA
The reason I objected to your invective was because it is a myth that immigrants (even those without papers) "take and take" while not contributing, and is often used to justify treating them inhumanely.

Here is a wonderful vignette to provide an example of how it can work:

from Der Spiegel

Quote:
'City of the Future'
Italian Village Welcomes Refugees with Open Arms
By Juliane von Mittelstaedt

An Italian village is hoping to reverse its population decline by welcoming refugees from around the world. The immigrants get free room and board and are expected to work and learn Italian in return. The project is proving highly successful -- but the local Mafia aren't happy.
Domenico Lucano, a 51-year-old man, is the mayor of Riace, Italy. The village -- with its three churches, two patron saints, sheep grazing on the surrounding hillsides and tangerine trees growing in the valleys -- is like a corn on the sole of the foot of the Calabria region.
Until recently, Riace was rapidly becoming a ghost town. People had left to find their luck elsewhere -- in Milan, Turin or Genoa, in Germany or the United States. Riace's population had shrunk so drastically that the village didn't even have a bar, a restaurant or a butcher's shop, and there weren't enough children to fill classes in the school. That was before Mayor Lucano decided to revive his village: with immigrants from Somalia, Eritrea, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Iraq and Lebanon.
It all began with a ship. The boat arrived 12 years ago, on July 1, 1998. Lucano, who was a teacher at the time, was driving along the coastal road when he saw a large group of people wading toward the shore. They were Kurdish refugees, 300 men and women, and a few children, stranded on a beach near his native village.
It was the same spot where two bronze statues had been found under the sea in 1972, putting Riace on the map. For Lucano, it was a sign. "The wind has brought us a special cargo, and who are we to turn it away?" The Greeks once sailed across the Mediterranean to Calabria, followed by the Arabs and the Normans -- and now the refugees were coming.
Global Village
Lucano welcomed the Kurds into his village, earning him the nickname "Mimmo the Kurd". Other refugees followed, the flotsam of wars and poverty around the world. He decided to create a place where the refugees and local inhabitants could work and live side-by-side -- a global village, in the poorest corner of one of Italy's poorest regions, a land of shattered dreams. He established an association and gave it an ambitious name: Città Futura ("City of the Future").
Europe's population is shrinking, and Italy now has one of the lowest birthrates on the continent. Lucano believes that he may have found a way to bring growth to Europe once again. His approach is to resettle refugees in places where the population is shrinking. He reasons that in areas where the population is already in decline, fears of overpopulation are less likely to surface.
Lucano set up his office in the Palazzo Pinnarò, an extravagant name for an ordinary house. Even though he has been mayor for the past six years, Lucano still works in the same office at his worn wooden desk, surrounded by maps of the world, a pastel drawing of Che Guevara and a poster depicting Mexican Zapatista rebels. He is a small man with big dreams and a favorite word: utopia. He is not a member of any political party, and when he ran for office, his campaign was based on nothing but a simple idea: The poorest of the poor would save Riace and, in return, Riace would save them. He won the election.
Since then, Lucano has accommodated refugees in empty houses in the medieval village center, where they are given free room and board, electricity included. In return, they are expected to learn Italian and work. The women make handicrafts and the men renovate houses that are then rented out to tourists.
Helen from Ethiopia, eight months' pregnant when she arrived by boat, weaves Calabrian fabrics out of high-quality wool. Mohammed from Iraq, persecuted by the Mahdi militias, now sells kebabs and works in construction. Shukri, a petite Somali woman, is 23 but looks 13, and has two children. She works as a glassblower, making glass butterflies.
Reversing Decline
There are now 220 immigrants living in Riace as well as the 1,600 Riacesi, as the village residents are called. The mayor hopes that the population will eventually return to its previous level of 3,000 people. The new residents are opening shops and sending their children to the local school, and tourists are now coming to Riace to buy the handicrafts they make. "A place that people were once leaving has now become a place of welcoming," Lucano says proudly.
A few weeks ago, when African fruit pickers, who earn €25 ($35) a day, staged a protest in nearby Rosarno, villagers responded by shooting at them and beating them with metal bars. After the incident, Lucano said in a television interview that Riace would welcome the immigrants. A short time later, three young men from Guinea, hardly more than boys, showed up at his door, one with a gunshot wound in his hip. Lucano explained the rules to the Guineans: They would receive €2 a day in spending money, plus €500 for a month of work. The boys were stunned. It seemed like a miracle.
It does sound almost too good to be true, but the concept seems to work. Lucano has won over the older people in the village, who were afraid of the immigrants, and the young people, who were worried that they would take away their jobs. Città Futura is already the biggest employer in the village, both for refugees and local residents.
Mafia Reaction
There is one group, however, that doesn't like the fact that it no longer calls the shots or is able to collect money in Riace: the Calabrian Mafia. Its thugs poisoned Lucano's three dogs and fired two bullets into the door of the Donna Rosa tavern. But for Lucano, it is a compliment, a sign that he has done his job well. Two neighboring villages have already adopted Lucano's approach, and the regional government in Calabria enacted a law that will allow even more villages to follow suit. Politicians are making pilgrimages to Riace, and last fall German filmmaker Wim Wenders even paid a visit to the village.
Wenders had intended to make a film about boat refugees, but it ended up being a 27-minute, semi-documentary, semi-Hollywood film, shot in 3-D, mostly about Riace and its new residents. The film is called "Il Volo" ("The Flight").
A short time later, Wenders gave a speech in Berlin, where celebrations to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall had just ended. "The true utopia is not the fall of the Wall, but what has been achieved in Calabria, in Riace," he said.
Lucano had the Wenders quote printed on his New Year's cards, which he sent around the world. He hopes that the miracle of Riace will spread elsewhere.
 

_________________
Gioele

Veni, vidi, vesci... –Me


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: citizenship and wanting to get to Italy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:59 am 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:59 am
Posts: 1544
Location: Connecticut, USA
torcgirl wrote:
well its interesting how I come to the post with a heartfelt explanation of my situation to get some friendly ears from people who have been there and I get a lecture about one line of my post. I was obviously wrong. I even went so far as to apologize to you if I offended you and you still keep on me about how priviledged I am. First of all I said that no one should come into a country illegally and stay and not try to become a citizen, are you advocating illegal immigration?


Your posts come off as being pretty racist!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

Was this helpful to you? Show your support and help the site stay alive!